Cape Town - The Free State head of the Office of the Public Protector Sphelo Samuel on Monday said he was ready to face the music in court should evidence he made in a parliamentary inquiry be used in a perjury charge.
Samuel made the undertaking when Public Protector Busisiwe Mkhwebane’s legal counsel, Advocate Dali Mpofu, indicated that they would pursue a perjury charge against him.
This after Mpofu showed contradictions in his evidence on his intention to lay a complaint against Mkhwebane with Parliament in 2020.
During cross-examination of Samuel, an interview he had with the public broadcaster was played and the transcript of the interview shown.
Mpofu took him to task for what he said under oath in the inquiry into the fitness of Mkhwebane to hold public office, affidavit and during the recorded interview.
“When you face a criminal crime for perjury, they might play this video so that you are sentenced to a longer period in jail,” he said.
Samuel said if the suggestion was the evidence was to be used in a criminal court when he was charged of perjury, he was ready for that.
“I don’t have any issues with it being used there,” he said.
Mpofu said he could not speak for Parliament, but they did not know what Parliament may or not be up to.
“We will certainly take necessary steps in so far as committing perjury against the Public Protector. We forgave earlier for insults. We are not to forgive you for perjury anyway,” he said.
Mpofu said the alleged perjury by Samuel was committed against the people of South Africa and not against Mkhwebane.
“She is not in a position to forgive. It will be taken by appropriate authorities. All I want to say is that you are a completely unrepentant liar even when you are caught out,” he said.
DA MP Benedicta van Minnen said Mpofu’s statements amounted to intimidation or threats.
“This is going too far. Threatening to be imprisoned is going too far,” Van Minnen said.
ACDP’s Marie Elizabeth Sukers said it was concerning that the witness was intimidated and that it would impact on witnesses still to testify before the inquiry.
Committee chairperson Qubudile Dyantyi said he was guided by Samuel in the manner of exchange.
“The only issue raised in a strong way is the issue of lying and liar, and the witness seems to be interacting with that. I am noting your concerns,” Dyantyi said.
Samuel was happy that some MPs came to his defence.
“I would have thought that the evidence leaders would come in. I felt that I was being threatened and that it is being ignored that I am giving answers to the best of my recollection.
“I stand by all the answers I have given here. If it means charge is laid, I will stand for the charge,” he said.
In his response, Mpofu said: “It is not a threat. It is a promise.”
Earlier during cross-examination, Mpofu said Samuel’s evidence was premised on or anchored on the notion that Mkhwebane told him at inspection at Vrede Dairy Farm that she did not want findings to be made against politicians.
“We are still even checking whether you were at the site inspection,” he said.
But, Samuel insisted that he had definitely been there and any suggestions to the contrary “quite frankly would be false.”
He said it would not have been odd for him to make the request to Mkhwebane to issue subpoenas against former premier Ace Magashule and former agriculture MEC Mosebenzi Zwane when he was seconded to Gauteng as he was not completely removed from the probe.
“This notion that Advocate Mkhwebane was shielding politicians is completely baseless,” he said.
Citing correspondence by one of the investigators, Mpofu showed that findings against Magashule and Zwane were only made when Mkhwebane took office in April 2017.
Former Office of the Public CEO Vussy Mahlangu will testify in the inquiry on Tuesday.
Cape Times